How to Detect a Lie with Traci Brown (Encore)

Hilary DeCesare: 00:00:00

Hey there, and welcome to a Silver Lined ReLaunch. And today I have Traci Brown in the house. And I gotta tell you, you may not know her, but she might know something about you. She was named by Time Magazine as one of the top nations deception detection experts, she trained alongside our country's top law enforcement. And she is a frequent television guest and author of How to detect lies, fraud, and identity theft. And her fraud spotting learning platform is something that she's going to be sharing a little bit about with us today. She is also about to launch a TV show around uncovering fraudulent behavior. This episode is brought to you by the fired up entrepreneur program. And this is a program that we are so proud of the results have been downright remarkable. And we want to invite you to get a glimpse of what it is like inside this program, by inviting you to participate in the business boot camp, which is a five day free event. And get involved with this because the pearls that we're going to be sharing each and every day are going to be the foundation for allowing you to make money, keep the money, grow the money and strengthen not only your business, but also yourself. So please take advantage of this and join us at our next bootcamp

Hilary DeCesare: 00:02:01

you're listening to the Silver Lined Relaunch, and I'm your host, Hilary DeCesare award winning entrepreneur and transitional coach. Each week, I'll invite you to tune in to inspirational stories, revealing how you too, can turn ordinary experiences into the extraordinary feeling stuck. I'll share step by step strategies to fuel your ability to experience a life where silver linings are both abundant and possible.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:02:31

So this is so exciting. I have to tell you, Traci, I have I literally was thinking about you a couple days ago when I thought when am I interviewing her? How come it hasn't been scheduled yet. And now you are here. And we are doing this? Oh,

Traci Brown: 00:02:49

I love it. Thank you for having me on. This is fantastic.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:02:52

Traci, you're so cool. Like you are you are what everyone would love to be doing. Or at least me. I think Oh, one last thing ever. And I've been so excited to get to the nitty gritty on how you do it. What key takeaways. But the show is not just about like the Nancy Drew and everything you know behind Nancy Drew it is about the relaunches that have made you know who you are and where you are today. And the Silver Linings behind it. And so I always love to open up the floor to you to be able to share with us your biggest relaunch that has brought you to where you are today. Oh,

Traci Brown: 00:03:32

man, look, well, let's, they've all been big for me. And let's let's go back. And I think we talked about this when we chatted a couple of weeks ago. So the this pandemic was pretty huge for me, I'm in that in I had I had the attitude going in because the on the surface, I want to say this right on the surface, it was devastating. Because I am mostly a keynote speaker, and I traveled to conferences to speak. And when you can't get together, it turns out there's not a lot of conferences. And so my schedule just wiped us up clean back in March and after working for so many years to be to get that schedule. That was that was pretty devastating. But I knew and I learned this in 2008 with the recession, that if I kept my eyes open, and if I just paid attention to what the universe laid in front of me there would be a huge opportunity that I would be able to jump on. And and and I knew one other guiding principle and that is that I wanted to be better positioned coming out of the pandemic than I was going in. And I knew I wanted to do more TV. And so that was that's all I knew. All I level

Hilary DeCesare: 00:05:00

you're saying because yes, you literally were putting together the relaunch process in your mind about like, how can I make this a positive for me coming out of this because, as you said this, I really want to make sure that people realize that people who are on stages, you lost not only that last year and a half, but people were very reticent about booking anything in the future, too. So it's not like when everything opens up, boom, you are, you know, everything is filled and your schedule is full for the next year, you got to rebuild re redesign your entire future. And then as you said, you know, you've kept your you paid, you kept my eyes open, and you paid attention. And, and what what came to you? Well,

Traci Brown: 00:05:52

I started a podcast because I realized I knew how to detect a lie, because I'm a body language expert. That's super easy for me. It's something I've trained to do, right? It's become easy. But I, I knew I started the podcast because I knew how to detect a lie. I didn't know how to run a scam. And so I love that I

Hilary DeCesare: 00:06:15

didn't know how to run a scam. I didn't know. And so,

Traci Brown: 00:06:19

so I, I just I wanted to see who would talk to me. And I found some of the world's most notorious criminals, most of them that I talked to have gone to the good side. I'm not all of them. But and not all of them, most of them. So I started talking to them, and I started talking to cops and investigators and people who've been defrauded, and I mean, amazing, amazing stories. And these stories kind of started to pile up and people would tell me stories after my keynotes, and, and I just thought, Man, these stories are amazing. They're so good. What What could I do with these stories? And I remember I said, I wanted to do more TV. So I got a call from someone who heard my podcast all client of mine hadn't talked to her in probably 15 years. And I had forgotten she was very, very wealthy. And and she goes, Hey, what would you do with $100,000? I love what I love your podcast. I love what you're up to do you need investment. And my first thought was, No, this is a weird business to get an investment in now. And then I remember driving around, and I thought, You know what, maybe I'll get that TV show idea back out again. And because I had one, what, a year and a half ago, two years ago and kind of worked on it a little bit. And it didn't really go anywhere. I got it back out and looked at it. And I was like, Oh, it didn't go anywhere because it sucks. And

Hilary DeCesare: 00:07:41

what I love about Tracy and this is where we had so much fun last time we had a conversation. You call it the way it is. Yeah, yes. Here you're like, you know what, it's suck that idea. Bad news. Yeah,

Traci Brown: 00:07:52

totally, totally. It was not good. But I kind of re I revamped it re I threw it away and kept like one concept is that it needs to be all about lie detection, and it needs to have a story. And so I was like, hmm, maybe, maybe I could do something with this. And so I had the story I wanted to use for for a pilot and and I talked to some friends. I was like, should I take this money? What should I do it? Here's the problem. As soon as you take money, you're beholden to someone. Also, you need a plan to pay it back. And I didn't want either of those, because I didn't know how I could pay it back. I don't know like to even even if I was certain I could get on the air somehow. I don't even know how much money that is. Right? So I had no clue. And so I ended up not taking the money. We're at kudos

Hilary DeCesare: 00:08:45

to you. Because so many people think, Oh, they want to give me money, I should take it and you off to the races. But then you get that money. And as you said you're beholden to them. And if they have a different idea on the direction, they start to change it, they modify it and next thing you know, you're creating something that isn't your vision at all. It's somebody else's.

Traci Brown: 00:09:06

Well, there's that and there's just flat out how you're going to pay it back. Just flat out because it is easy to spend money on video production. I'll tell you that for sure. And but I started making some calls and and I ended up finding a writer in Hollywood and I talked to a crime writer in Hollywood, talked her into working with me. And she's Emmy nominated, she's she's been a executive at HBO like She's the real deal and I just love her to death. And we came and I was just like, You know what, I think I have to do this like I had to do it for a few reasons like because in Hollywood you don't always have to shoot a pilot like ideally you want someone else to shoot a pilot or to film it right to pay for it. But without nuanced body languages. I was like people are going to need to see this for one on for two, I needed my own footage for my keynotes, right. And also, I needed something because I was going so crazy without being on the road without moving forward in my business. And it gave me this whole new thing to focus on So, so I went for it. And it took me from about this time. Like when I found my writer from about this time last year, till last January, when I had when I had it, I had the pilot that we needed, and I was able to get the sizzle reel, like like you saw. And so I standing by the way,

Hilary DeCesare: 00:10:43

before you even got the sizzle, where you have written a book. Oh, yeah. And so you had been doing this for a long time. It's just now you're going into

Traci Brown: 00:10:52

entertainment. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So so it's really the combination of everything that I've, that I've done is to put together this this to this TV show, you know, that came from this little podcast idea that came from the whole idea of me flipping like turning calling lie detection, fraud prevention, it turns out, they pay you a lot more when you when you get the terminology just right. And, and so it's all these things. And anyway, we're working on selling the show in Hollywood right now. And it's called truth lies and cover ups. And so people can do a search or I can give you the link and you can see the sizzle reel. And and that's

Hilary DeCesare: 00:11:34

definitely put the sizzle reel in the shownotes Oh, absolutely. No doubt. So you'll be able to go to the relaunch koat.com. And it will be there for everybody to see because I was just unlike Absolutely. I mean, this is one of those, like, get it out there soon. In tree. You know, you got all everything that people want suspense, you know, and let's go into what everyone really is so fascinated about, which is how do you detect

Traci Brown: 00:12:05

a lie? Oh, so the there's a couple of ways to do it. The one real easy way is that when you ask someone a direct yes or no question, you gotta believe that body first take the words with a grain of salt. So, so if if you asked me a question like it, whatever it is it and I said, Oh, I would never do that. Do you see that to see I'm not in Yes, my body isn't on yet.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:12:32

So for those that are not watching the video over on YouTube, she is doing one of those head nods but the opposite of what Yes.

Traci Brown: 00:12:41

She's doing the words. Yeah. So when the body language and the words don't match, you got a hotspot? It's real easy for a yes, a direct yes or no question. When it gets longer than that? Well, let's go back to the direct Yes or No. If I shook my head no, like this and said, you can ask me anything.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:13:01

Yes, thing and that why does it let me ask you something? Why does it do that? Why? Why? Like, I could sit there and say, Yeah, you know, I'm really interested. Really interested in body my head no, like, Why? Why does that, you know, in our body do that.

Traci Brown: 00:13:19

It's just hard. It's hardwired into us. Since since we're, since we were little bitty, that shaking your head means no, right? Like even when your mom tries to give you a bite of food, you're like, No, right? So it it's just hardwired into us no different in like Asia, they do it different, right? But that's how it is here western US or Western culture, right? So so that's so always believe the body first take the words with a grain of salt. And for longer answers that you need. What it takes a little bit more time, not much. But you need to get a baseline for people and in we all have a normal way we behave. And what happens is when when we get into cognitive overload when we're lying, because the brains doing too much trying to keep up with the situation and create more story and add feeling and add emotion and add time and all these things. Body language falls off the plate. So So during a pointed conversation about something that could be potentially incriminating, when the body language shifts dramatically, that that can lead lead to deception that can show deception. So

Hilary DeCesare: 00:14:30

we always hear when you know or I have always heard with kids, if they don't look you in the eye. They're lying.

Traci Brown: 00:14:39

Well, again, that goes back to that goes back to a baseline situation. Some of us have a look to talk rule. And and what do we do? Because when we're young we learn you look your father in the eye, young lady, right and in some of us don't like I do not have that right. I've been looking all over this whole time. And so if I started to look You directly in the eye all the time with my with every word of the conversation. And for one, it's insanely hard for me to do just when I tried to do it. But that's that's a shift in baseline. So you want to compare people to themselves not to like a wives tale that that you may have heard. What

Hilary DeCesare: 00:15:19

I'm hearing, what I'm hearing you say is that like, first and foremost, you need to look to see what is there, as you said, baseline when they're just talking when they're just, you know, discussing things with you to see what they're doing. And then when you start to ask the questions, then if there's some shiftiness, then you know,

Traci Brown: 00:15:39

yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's what I talk about in my book is all the things you can look for that, that can shift things from blink rate, blink weight, like, are they how are they crossing their arms? Like all? How are they sitting? What's their feet doing? Like, all these little things you can, you can start to look for it, because here's the deal. Hillary, most of us are paying so much attention to ourselves, we're just not paying attention to what's going on outside us. And people are screaming at you all the time, exactly what's going on exactly what they're going to do next. And it's up to you to see it. And most of us just don't. So, really, what I like to do, especially in my keynotes is just raise people's sensory acuity. And that's how much they're paying attention to what goes on outside of them.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:16:23

So how do you raise somebody's acuity sensory? Oh, um,

Traci Brown: 00:16:28

well, I don't want to give it away too much. But give us a

Hilary DeCesare: 00:16:31

little just give us a little bit of something we can take away. Um,

Traci Brown: 00:16:37

well, in my, in my talks, I'll bait him into it with prizes and things like that, like for things that they that they don't want to miss, right and but the easiest way to do it is just get a buddy and and close your eyes, and make a picture of your buddy in your head and then open your eyes and see what you got right and see what you got wrong. Like from the color of their shirt to how their hair is to what kind of jewelry are they wearing? Like how are they sitting what's in front of them? The whole thing? It's really hard to do, it's really hard to do stay in some groups are better at it than others, like the ones in the people business are better like real estate agents. And I just spoke I think I told you at the bowling proprietors Association, people business, right? The financial people,

Hilary DeCesare: 00:17:22

let me ask you, on average, what can people remember about that buddy? Closing your eyes? How many things could they remember?

Traci Brown: 00:17:33

Well, you know what, I don't have the stats on that as far as in my talks. And that would be a good one to get. But they say you can remember. So you can remember seven plus or minus two things. So five benign things you can remember. But with attention, you can pay attention to however many you want.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:17:54

So good. That is, you know, because you always wonder and I shared with you my story where when I first met this guy that ended up investing in one of my companies. When I first met him, I had the hair on the back of my neck just stand up. And my intuition was on, you know, it was like a fire alarm going off in my head. You know, run get out of here, you do not want to do business with this guy, get out of here, get out of here, get out of here. Situations happened. And even though I had been guaranteed he would not be involved, boom, he got involved. But is there a way? Like, do you ever I'd like to, I'd love to understand how do you how do you merge? What you know, with intuition and like, what I was feeling like the feeling versus these specifics? Like do you ever do that? Or is it is it very much like, these are the clues that are coming out? You know, like you said about, you know, baseline cognitive theory. So

Traci Brown: 00:18:59

what I do is put some science behind the hunches that you have. Right? And and you had a hunch, and he didn't follow it, and then you ended up paying for it. And I know it was traumatic and drawn out and long and probably something you really wish never had happen right? Now even But even you did your best to like circumnavigate around it but it's looking back at you, right so yeah, you gotta you gotta follow a hunch and and then you can look for the clues to cuz here's the deal. There's a reason to do business with anyone. There's a reason not to do business with with anyone that you see. And what I do is give you the signs so that you can have more empirical data than just, there's something about it right? There's something about that guy. So what I love

Hilary DeCesare: 00:19:50

I love that, as you said science behind the hunches. You know, understanding that, yeah, we have these intuitive hits or we have that gut feel. But then If you put down like, hey, here are the things that you should actually be really thinking about, like as I'm nodding my head. Yeah. Yep, that's the way you should be doing it. Okay, so awesome. Awesome. I love all that. Now, you did say something really interesting when you first started and you said, when you rephrased what you actually did? It took off? Can you tell us about that? Yeah,

Traci Brown: 00:20:22

I was calling. Because I'm a body language expert. And I started out doing my body language expert. Great Guess what? Body language experts or diamond doesn't. We are. And anyone who's read like three articles in Cosmo, and about body language, you can call themselves a body language expert. Right? Um, and so then I started focusing on lie detection more. And in so I like that was better. It was better. In then I started working with someone says, Hey, you need to be in the category of one. And she came up with this. She's like, how about you're the fraud busting body language expert, right. So all of a sudden, I went from just run of the mill to like fraud busting body language expert. Like that. Sounds interesting. Right? And it sounds like I saw Big whoop, sorry, I saw big problems. And

Hilary DeCesare: 00:21:19

I love what you just said, because you go from this body language expert. All right. Yeah. And you know, you could say, your coach, you could say, you know, all these different things. And they're, as you said, dime a dozen tons of them out there, blah, blah, blah. How do you differentiate yourself? And the way you did it is, hey, how can I be a category one, and you came up with fraud busting body language expert? Yeah. I mean, at that point, you're like, Yeah, okay, so tell me what you do. When you're fraud busting? Tell me how, what's your process?

Traci Brown: 00:21:54

Well, mostly, I'll do video review. And you know, I do work a lot on fraud. Let's let before we talk about what I do, let's go back, because I'm not done talking about that fraud busting, because because I think what happens in in business, at least with keynote speakers, the ones who are kind of finding their footing in any of it, some of the more ones that are Get Booked more, it's important to solve a problem that people know they have in that, and that sounds silly, and it sounds trite to even had to say that, but it's true. A lot of us have information that is great. And we want to put it out there and we're like this is this is great. If you have to convince people that they have the problem, then you solve it, you are you are doing three or four times the amount of work that you need to do. And there is a line item at the bottom of every balance sheet at the end of the quarter at the end of the year that says fraud. And so if I can tie myself to that, then all of a sudden, I'm much more valuable. So the more you can do that, because because that's that's what business is about solving people's problems, right? And the more you can solve their specific problem, the more that they will pay you so so there's that, um, now, what do I do when so mostly what I do is is help people learn the signs for themselves so because I can't be everywhere at all times. It helps in interviewing in negotiations in all sorts of things. Investigations, sales, you name it right to know more about whoever's across from you is worth it's it's worth its weight in gold. Now to do that, I have an online platform that well I do keynotes right and that's that's great. I have an online platform that people use like after the when they want to know more and it's just little bitty short video self paced. It's super cool. Um, and you know, I do work on investigations when they come in some of them are fraud some of them are not lately I've had a couple child sex abuse cases come in and I do a lot of video review with with that and in do opinion letters and things like that that actually have a legal weight to them and are used in cases and things so but that's been anywhere from like I said, Child Child Sexual Abuse to gosh, I worked on a rape case a California water law case, politics, I tried to not do I accidentally got sucked into one of those. I won't do that again. Because people are just nasty and crazy. And I had to tell my client that he he was the one that was nuts. And it wasn't the other guy.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:24:52

Um, yeah, if you said something about you know, court and you're identifying these videos and everything, is it do they can they use Is what you're saying, in court? I mean, is this now scientifically like, yeah, that's what's happening. I mean, is there enough data out there, that it is admissible in court? Not

Traci Brown: 00:25:12

admissible? And neither is a polygraph test, right? Because there's variability in both the practices. But I can inform the case. And the thing is, even if if a jury gets a report from me, and it's like, they have the report in their hand, but then it struck, they still have the report in their hands. And that can still influence right. So, um, so that will happen, but also I'll inform lawyers, where to dig more, like, there's more information here, you need to go find it like that, that kind of thing. So, um, anyway, yeah, those are, those are some of the some of the ways that people use me. Like I do it sometimes it's not the meat of of what I do. But um, but I think it's important when I do do it.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:26:02

So one of my favorite parts, as we, you know, kind of come to an end here with our interview is I love to ask rapid fire questions. And so you are creating this TV show you're gonna have is it it's dramatic stations, you're gonna take stories and then put them into your, your series or your

Traci Brown: 00:26:24

it's a scripted drama.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:26:26

Yeah. So what is the craziest one that you've heard so far? Can you give us a little detail? Just?

Traci Brown: 00:26:36

Yeah, yeah, the craziest one, there was a lot of fraud that happened in the pandemic. And it's so it's so simple and so brazen.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:26:47

I love that you're like cracking yourself up right now like crazy,

Traci Brown: 00:26:50

like, Oh, my, so there were people out there offering during the pandemic, you know, because your money is dirty, right? To set your cash out on your porch. And they would come take it and clean it for you and bring it back.

Traci Brown: 00:27:10

Now, it works. It works. Um,

Hilary DeCesare: 00:27:16

okay. I have not heard that. That is. That is unbelievable.

Traci Brown: 00:27:22

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yeah. That's, that's the, that's the cause. So you know, they took it, they did one of the three steps.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:27:30

So crazy. Okay, so another question. What has been the biggest fraud episode for yourself? For

Traci Brown: 00:27:41

myself? Well, I grew up racing bikes with Lance Armstrong. So they go right out of the block there a lot. We all knew something was going on with him. We all know it. And when I say all I mean, all the people racing knew it. And, you know, it only took 20 years for him to complain about all this performance enhancing drug use. But yeah, he was he was the one you know, you just you didn't knew something was going on. But you didn't know what and you didn't know. But you knew you knew it was no good. So yeah, that was my it just happened to be the biggest fraud in all of sports.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:28:23

You're right, you're right there. There.

Traci Brown: 00:28:25

Yeah, I read his book. What his first one that's not about the bike. And I I was I was there for another first quarter or half of the book and a lot of those scenes. You know, I didn't make the the text but I just remember thing I was reading. I was like, I don't remember it that way.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:28:46

That's really funny. So let me ask you when you think about something that hasn't come out yet, is there an area that you're like, oh, it's common? Like this is gonna be blown sky high. Oh, like,

Traci Brown: 00:29:03

like, like an area of business. That's, yeah, it's fraught right now that no one knows about? Um Oh, you know what, I don't have anything like that, that I'm comfortable talking about? Because people will get in trouble. I understand that. Yeah, I better. Now I get a fifth on that.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:29:27

I was I was pushing it. Yeah.

Traci Brown: 00:29:29

I appreciate it. I

Hilary DeCesare: 00:29:30

do, but I can't. Okay, so I'm going to ask it a different way. Okay. Okay. As cybersecurity. more intensive and things are happening online. How can we use your body expert services when things are getting into the high tech world or can we not? Um,

Traci Brown: 00:29:53

I'll tell you that I'll tell you what is very concerning to me are these deep fake videos and I was working with a cybersecurity guy, just a friend of mine. And he made some up and I could not tell the difference. I could I could tell us more about deep fake videos. Um, well, it's where it and we've seen some of them come out that have kind of went viral like, like, where Nancy Pelosi looks drunk, right? Say and whatever she says, or, you know, the way it gets. The reason it's problematic is because, well, the way social media is right now you give everyone a microphone, and then all the crazies get together and, and cause problems. And, and that's my synopsis of social media, and how it affects society. But if if, let's say a certain group that wanted to make a certain point and swing opinion, their way and decided to make a video of the President saying something that wouldn't fly with a lot of people. And you couldn't tell the difference. Before maybe the fact checkers got to it or, you know, things like that, or maybe a foreign government of would would do something like, I mean, it could potentially, I suppose, cause a war or things like that. You know, that's, that's problematic. It's problematic. So, anyway, yeah. The fact that I couldn't that I tried really hard, and I couldn't tell the difference was I was very concerned about that. Because like, ah, that's terrible, huh. For

Hilary DeCesare: 00:31:32

somebody like you who is truly an expert in this area. Okay. Well, this is an also a question that you are an expert in as well. Okay. Well, what is your favorite beauty product by name?

Traci Brown: 00:31:48

by name? You know what, I have it right here on my desk because I need to order more. Here it is. Big Sexy Hair. I don't know if you can see

Hilary DeCesare: 00:31:55

it. Let's see. I love that. That's one of my favorite hair screws.

Traci Brown: 00:31:59

This is it's not hairspray. Oh no. Oh, no. Big Sexy Hair as a hairspray. Okay, so my hair is not big or sexy. However, I'm from Texas. And I do like big hair. I understand the value of it. And this is hair powder, which is awesome. So I like this brand because you don't have to put very much and then you just kind of go like that. And then you got body that's gonna last in like a dry shampoo. No, no, it is. It is powder play Big Sexy Hair. This is hair powder. This is not Shampoo. This is make your hair big and be closer to God. That's what this is.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:32:41

Tracy, where can people learn more about you?

Traci Brown: 00:32:45

Oh, um, I am at body language trainer.com. And you can go there and you can find me on YouTube really easy. And all the all the socials, you'll find me but yeah, body language trainer.com. Awesome.

Hilary DeCesare: 00:33:00

And we will make sure to also put that in the show notes. Traci, what fun. It's been Thank you. Thank you for being here. And we look forward to following up when we hear that your show is going live and watching it. And for those that are interested in getting more information about Traci. You can visit the show notes on www that dot the relaunch co.com under podcast and you will find it all there, Traci. Until next time, thank you so much.

Traci Brown: 00:33:36

Thank you

Hilary DeCesare: 00:33:41

thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the Silver Lined ReLaunch. If I said something today that resonated with you, will you please head over to iTunes right now. And leave us a five star review and share this episode with others and help them find the silver linings as well. And don't forget, you can have immediate access to the show notes, any giveaways and the links to those amazing beauty products at therelaunchco.com/podcast. Until next time, there's always a silver lining. And now is the time to hit the reset button to relaunch those transitions into transformations.